Another response to poor Rory

Here is Rory's response to my post called "In response to a comment". His response was:

"Dear Ted,

Thanks for your comments and rebuttal. We can agree to disagree.

If you read my article, you probably noted that The Wall Street Journal article I quoted said:

“Scientists ... often change their minds when they see new evidence. I was reminded of this a few months ago when I saw a survey in the journal 'Nature'. It revealed that 40% of American physicists, biologists and mathematicians believe in God — and not just some metaphysical abstraction, but a deity who takes an active interest in our affairs and hears our prayers: the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

Jim Holt, Science Resurrects God, The Wall Street Journal, December 24, 1997, Dow Jones & Co.

This was based on a poll published in Nature by Edward J. Larson and Larry Witham, "Scientists Are Still Keeping the Faith," Nature 386 (1997): 435; and Larry Witham, "Many Scientists See God's Hand in Evolution," Washington Times, April 11, 1997, p. A8. Edward J. Larson is an American historian and legal scholar. He is University Professor of history and holds the Hugh & Hazel Darling Chair in Law at Pepperdine University, he was formerly Herman E. Talmadge Chair of Law and Richard B. Russell Professor of American History at the University of Georgia.

The Nature article can be referenced on Nature's site at Scientists are Still Keeping the Faith.

I also quoted Science, which is the most prestigious peer-reviewed scientific journal in the United States. Its August 1997 issue featured an article entitled Science and God: A Warming Trend? which said:

“The fact that the universe exhibits many features that foster organic life — such as precisely those physical constants that result in planets and long-lived stars — also has led some scientists to speculate that some divine influence may be present.”

Science Digest reported:

"Scientists who utterly reject Evolution may be one of our fastest-growing controversial minorities ... Many of the scientists supporting this position hold impressive credentials in science."

Larry Hatfield, “Educators Against Darwin,” Science Digest Special (Winter 1979), pp. 94-96.

The Union of Concerned Scientists, the leading nonprofit science advocacy group, says:

"The growing strength of the movement to discredit evolution and promote the teaching of intelligent design and other non science-based views of biological diversity in public science classrooms is of great concern. Please see the UCS position statement on this alarming trend."

Ref. Science, Evolution, and Intelligent Design

Regarding your comment on 'quote mining', this a typical accusation by those who simply don't want valid but revealing information exposed that damages their position, but have no other rationalization to dismiss it. The definition of 'quote mining' includes distortion of intended meaning of those quoted, which does not occur in this case. It is perfectly valid to quote anyone as long as intended meaning is conveyed accurately. There is no quote mining, distortion or misinformation in the article.

I hope people will take the time to check the sources I quote, which will simply verify I quoted them accurately. It's pretty obvious from the abundance of quotes that the context and conclusion is clear, and there is no possible distortion. These kinds of false accusations come with the territory on this issue, unfortunately.

The considered testimony of many eminent scientists I quoted remains clear and consistent, and should not be lightly dismissed.

Best Regards,

Rory"

Rory, you really don't want people to research your quotes, do you? Because in doing so you make a case that opposes your premise. Intelligent Design is junk science and there is no increasingly large percentage of today's scientists believe in an intelligent designer of the universe and life. Well here is a little fun. I know I enjoyed it, but I am not sure you will.

1. Your quote " 40% of American physicists, biologists and mathematicians believe in God" . . . so what? I don't care if 100% believed in God -- that is a long distance from supporting Creationism or Intelligent Design as scientific theories. Just ask the over 13,000 clergy members who have signed a letter supporting Evolution and the teaching of Evolution to our children. These clergy folks believe in God and still support evolution, what do they know that you do not?

Here are a couple of quotes and references for you:
From the Christian Clergy Letter (http://blue.butler.edu/~mzimmerm/Christian_Clergy/ChrClergyLtr.htm)

"We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. "

From the Rabbinical Clergy Letter (http://blue.butler.edu/~mzimmerm/Jewish_Clergy/JewishClergyLtr.htm)

"As rabbis from various branches of Judaism, we the undersigned, urge public school boards to affirm their commitment to the teaching of the science of evolution. Fundamentalists of various traditions, who perceive the science of evolution to be in conflict with their personal religious beliefs, are seeking to influence public school boards to authorize the teaching of creationism. We see this as a breach in the separation of church and state. Those who believe in a literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation are free to teach their perspective in their homes, religious institutions and parochial schools. To teach it in the public schools would be to assert a particular religious perspective in an environment which is supposed to be free of such indoctrination."

From the Unitarian Clergy Letter (http://blue.butler.edu/~mzimmerm/Unitarian_Universalists/UnivUnitarianClergyLtr.htm)

"While most Unitarian Universalists believe that many sacred scriptures convey timeless truths about humans and our relationship to the sacred, we stand in solidarity with our Christian and Jewish brothers and sisters who do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. We believe that religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts."

2. Your second reference actually says pretty much the same thing . . . there is some percentage of scientists who believe if God. Again, SO WHAT? At no time does this reference support some dramatic increase in the number of those scientists. It also does not support your contention of Intelligent Design -- yet you seem to think it does. Just a reminder the title of your original piece was "Intelligent Design vs. Evolution — The Miracle of Intelligent Design" So far you haven't seemed to provide any support. Don't worry, it gets worse.

3. Have you ever read the Science Digest? I have. I read it in the 60's and 70's and you know what? If you wanted the latest on Bigfoot or UFO's, that is the magazine for you. It was not a scientific journal, but more interested in the junk-science to increase circulation for decades. That's not to say all of Science Digest was junk science, but it was rarely a reference for a serious scientist. It's certainly not one used often in support of actual scientific research. Did you know it's been out of print since the late 80's? It made an effort to renovate its image, but it was too little, too late. Here is a review of the 1980 revamping -- still not something a scientist would use very often: http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/v5p218y1981-82.pdf. You might also look at Pub Med and see how often Science Digest was listed? After 50 years in print it was listed 36 times in Pub Med, and only works from the last few years of it's life. Pretty pathetic for a science magazine. In contrast over 4000 for Scientific American.

4. Please learn to read for comprehension. In the link from the Union of Concerned Scientists the phrase "movement to discredit evolution". Since when does a 'movement' imply a group of scientists who now believe in God? What the article was addressing is the political and marketing campaign by groups like the Discovery Institute, Answers in Genesis (AiG), Access Research network (ARN), and Institute for Creation Research (ICR). These groups have been attempting to discredit evolution. Look at the membership for those groups and you will find very few scientists -- lots of philosophers and lawyers, but few scientists. If you dared to do your own homework you would have also discovered that the majority of members have a theistic issue with science, not a scientific one. The only reason it has become an issue for scientists, like the UCS, is because of the success they have had with school boards, politicians, and the popular press. What the UCS has not had to comment on was any actual scientific work . . . because there has not been any! You certainly failed to reference any in your little paper. Instead of discrediting evolution, why aren't you and your philosophical compatriots spending time supporting ID with real work? Are you unable, unwilling, or incapable of doing so?

5. As for quote mining -- One of the ways you can identify a quote-mine is when you see a quote taken out of context. Have you actually read "A Brief History of Time"? If you did then taking a quote in an attempt to convince anyone that Dr. Hawking is a supporter of ID is ludicrous! How about Richard Dawkins . . . are you serious? Even the quotes you lifted don't show any support for ID, only that the biology and chemistry work is hard . . . well luckily scientists aren't afraid of hard work. Can you say the same? You haven't even done the homework on the quotes you mined -- or did you just copy these from some creationist website and let someone else do the work for you? Try reading "The God Delusion" or "The Blind Watchmaker" instead of mis-using quotes -- you might have learned something -- like:

"Natural selection is sufficient to explain the apparent functionality and non-random complexity of the biological world, and can be said to play the role of watchmaker in nature, albeit as an automatic, nonintelligent, blind watchmaker."

And Francis Crick, so you ran out of living scientists you have to bring one back from the dead. I guess it's easy because it's hard for them to refute you. Well here is a quote from his 1988 work, What Mad Pursuit,

"Biologists must constantly keep in mind that what they see was not designed, but rather evolved."

But this wasn't the first time Dr. Crick was so used. Just a few years ago a part-time soccer coach in California tried to get the approval to teach a 'philosophy' class called "The Philosophy of Design". The class consisted of having the students was 25 videos put out by Creationist organizations. When it was suggested that her curriculum was a little to far to the evangelical right she added several speakers -- including her husband -- an evangelical minister, and Dr. Francis Crick. Dr. Crick was to offer a counterpoint. One small problem, he had died a few years earlier. The class was canceled after the lawsuit was settled! Can't you people leave the man alone! (http://sciencestandards.blogspot.com/2007/12/coexistence-iii.html)

Your quote of Hoyle was even more fun. You do realize that it was from a book called "Evolution from Space " -- well you should realize it since you mentioned it in your little article. But did you do more than copy to quote from some creationist website? Have you actually looked up the source material? This is one of the publications in which Sir Fred put forth the hypothesis of Panspermia -- that the building blocks of life came from outer space in for form of organic molecules in comets. So attempting to use him to support ID is nothing more than a quote-mine, as I already pointed out to you -- but you failed to take the hint. You also called him an 'evolutionist' which is a lie. He was a Mathematician and an Astronomer. What, did calling him an 'evolutionist' give his words a greater impact? Like I said, you aren't much of a researcher, are you?

6. The rest of your 'paper' is still a poor exercise of scholarship. You imply the appearance of design is the fact of design and you mis-used the quotes from other people to sell your idea. As a college paper in any class but a Creative Writing class you would receive an 'F' mainly because you failed to support your premise. In Creative Writing you might squeak by with a 'C' but only if the professor gave you extra credit for the creative use for your quotes. I would still flunk you because the original portion of your paper was pretty minimal.

Yes, we can agree to disagree. but my advice is to keep Creationism, and its latest incarnation Intelligent Design, far from the science classroom. Right now it is not a scientific premise because of the lack of any scientific support. If that changes in the future, then it can be re-evaluated -- but until the actual work is done, it does not belong in science class.

I doubt you liked reading all this , but I had fun anyway. You might look at your own motivations. Your interest in ID does not seem to stem from an interest in science, but because of your theological leanings. Look at thelast line of your little paper or the first line of your own description:

"If you have not already done so, don't wait, but reconcile yourself to Christ now."

"Rory Roybal is the author of Miracles or Magic?, and has over 10 years of experience leading in-depth church and home Bible studies."